Gawker
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blogging for dollars
Yahoo Might Buy Tumblr, New York's Cutest Startup
We hear Yahoo is in talks to buy Tumblr, a blogging startup run by 22-year-old David Karp for "low-to-mid eight figures" — which would translate to a small fortune for the New York entrepreneur. More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by ZiggyStardust: As a Tumblr user, this makes me really, really sad. 5 Responses | Other threads
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acquisitions
The Unbearable Yahoo-AOL-Microsoft Dance
Someone buy something, please. Our New York sighting of Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer with Yahoo chairman Roy Bostock missed one: Time Warner CEO Jeff Bewkes, who'd like to unload AOL. More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by macbeach: I can't help but think that any deal involving Microsoft will be challenged legally. Nobody's going to complain as... 1 Responses | Other threads
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nerdspotting
Microsoft CEO, Yahoo Chairman Meet in New York
So much for a new boss ending Yahoo's drama. Why did the company's chairman meet Microsoft's Steve Ballmer at the Time Warner Center Thursday, two days after Yahoo named Carol Bartz its new CEO? More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by Snarkotron: Even more disturbing scenario: Ballmer's wide stance in an airport bathroom led to a rather awkward "anonymous" rendezvous. more » | Other threads
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sue decker
Yahoo's Depressing Backup Plan
No one wants to buy Yahoo. And the only person who wants to run Yahoo is an insider who helped sink it. Is there any hope left for the beleaguered Web giant? More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by Beautiful Stranger: Yahoo's impending demise raises an interesting issue which I am sure will delight us all (or at least those of... 7 Responses | Other threads
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gurbaksh chahal
Yahoo millionaire's reality-TV appearance
Gurbaksh "G" Chahal, enriched by Yahoo's $300 million buy of his advertising startup, has taken a star turn on The Secret Millionaire, a reality TV show.
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By Owen ThomasComment by sample032: I guess this means it's time for me to pitch my "rednecks in the castro" idea to Fox. Owen,... 1 Responses | Other threads
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acquisitions
Yahoo's sad, sad state
Another day, another hare-brained scheme to buy Yahoo. This time, the player isn't Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, but former AOL CEO Jon Miller, who now runs a venture-capital fund. But the prospect of a deal seems as far off and fanciful as Microsoft, which spent most of the spring and summer trying to buy Yahoo, coming back to the negotiating table. Miller wants to buy Yahoo, but is having trouble coming up with the money, the Wall Street Journal reports. Is there no one serious who wants to buy this company?
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By Owen ThomasComment by giddieup: what puzzles me is the price he says he can get for yahoo. 20-22. that is almost a 100% premium over... 2 Responses | Other threads
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twitter
Twitter's bad news is a bad business
People who use Twitter, a service which posts short updates to the Web and cell phones, love nothing more than to Twitter about themselves, and the medium they've so enthusiastically adopted. If you go by the Twitterers' collective reporting, every event, from an earthquake in Los Angeles to terrorist bombings in Mumbai, is more notable for the fact that people are writing about it on Twitter than for its inherent interest as news. The dominant narrative of Twitter is the rise of Twitter, the latest force to displace the mainstream media and roil the world's information economy. Too bad the real story of the company is one of top-to-bottom incompetence.
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By Owen ThomasComment by sample032: "...Twitter faces large bills from cell-phone companies which charge it for forwarding text messages to cell phones" Someone from Meebo told... 10 Responses | Other threads
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steve ballmer
Microsoft: "We are done with Yahoo"
Microsoft's chair-hurling 800-pound gorilla slammed the door on talk of a renewed Yahoo acquisition deal at today's shareholder meeting in Bellevue, Washington. "We are done with all acquisition deals with Yahoo ... We did our best. We've moved on." In business, this often means: We'll be back. For now, though, Ballmer said he'd rather cut a deal to serve Live Search results to Yahoo users — as a vendor, not an owner. Why can he speak with such confidence? Because he's already snapped up Yahoo's key search engineers.
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By Paul BoutinComment by mew: Microsoft no longer needs to buy Yahoo!. Ballmer probably knew that their original offer would be rejected. By... 3 Responses | Other threads
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earnings
When will Time Warner give up on AOL?
Time Warner has reported its third-quarter results, including AOL's numbers, and they are dismal. Internet-access revenues were down 26 percent, a loss everyone more or less expected, since the dial-up business is moribund. But advertising sales were down 6 percent. AOL management can't blame the market meltdown for this one, since that had barely started by the time the quarter ended. October through December, one assumes, will be much, much worse. More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by teleprax: It's getting harder to justify having your search marketing team put any time or effort in to running on engines... more » | Other threads
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rumormonger
If Scott Moore leaves Yahoo, does that mean it's buying AOL?
Scott Moore, the head of Yahoo Media Group, is leaving the company, reports BoomTown's Kara Swisher. A bad sign for the company: Moore ran some of Yahoo's most successful operations, including its news, finance, and sports websites. Why is Moore leaving now, having survived most of Yahoo's annus horribilis with his charm unruffled? The first conclusion I'll jump to: Talks with Time Warner to sell AOL to Yahoo are advancing, and Moore does not like his position in the merged entity. Update: Swisher writes: "Dead wrong guess as usual. Talks are slower than ever. He had the top job over Bill Wilson." Well, why didn't you say so in the first place, Kara?
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By Owen ThomasComment by karaswisher: I forgot you were in remedial reading, Owen. I said it here: "With high-ranking Yahoo execs like Moore gone, it will... 2 Responses | Other threads
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acquisitions
Yahoo, AOL still dating awkwardly
“This is not just unloading AOL for us,” a source close to Time Warner told Kara Swisher. “It is also an important strategic move for our future to get this right.” I love the way anonymous sources lie so convincingly. The truth, Swisher blogs, is both simpler and more boring: Yahoo and AOL don't really like each other. Neither company holds much attraction for the other. Important strategic move means an arranged marriage, forced on both sides by dwindling market value. Which reminds me: We should plot the number of Google engineers whose pending marriages have been "temporarily rescheduled for 2009."
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By Paul BoutinComment by Morphy: AOL and Yahoo are like two people buried up to their necks covered in honey next to an ant hill.... more » | Other threads
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quotable
What Steve Ballmer really said about Yahoo
Kara Swisher calls Steve Ballmer's tendency to run at the mouth "executive Tourette syndrome." Funny because it's true! Microsoft's CEO sent Yahoo's stock soaring yesterday with comments that were widely reported as suggesting renewed interest in buying the company. We'll skip Swisher's blah-blah-blah analysis and let you judge for yourself exactly what Ballmer said: More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by MichellePhyleus: Well, now google runs from yahoo, who will be the next player? more » | Other threads
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microsoft
Oh, I dunno, maybe we might buy Yahoo after all, or not
Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, after he and his underlings spent months saying they'd moved on from the notion of buying Yahoo, says that a deal still makes "economic sense." Yahoo's stock leapt 17 percent, though it wasn't clear from his remarks, made at a Gartner conference in Florida, whether he was talking about a search partnership or a full acquisition. Either way, Ballmer: Make up your frickin' mind. There are 3,500 Yahoos who are about to lose their jobs, not to mention that cushy post-Microsoft severance package Jerry Yang ginned up. Oh, wait, there's more! More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by pleinad: This is what I read from Fools: Nice one, Ballmer. Market mavens fell right into your trap. They think you're serious.... more » | Other threads
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acquisitions
AOL cuts Yahoo, even before a deal's done
They say, of fastly dropping markets, that one should never try to catch a falling knife. In trying to sell AOL, Time Warner could be letting a sharp blade fly at Yahoo, the most likely buyer for the troubled Internet business. Will a deal happen? If so, for how much? No one really knows, but everyone wants this clumsy mating dance to be over. Henry Blodget floated and then retracted a rumor that a deal was imminent, for something in the range of $8 billion to $10 billion. More » -
yahoo
Jerry Yang in New York talking AOL deal
The much-talked-about talks between Yahoo and Time Warner to unload AOL? They're definitely on, says a tipster, who also claims Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang and President Sue Decker are in New York trying to cajole Time Warner CEO Jeff Bewkes into a deal before Yahoo announces third-quarter earnings later this month. Any Manhattan stargazers care to keep an eye out for him? Update: Kara Swisher now reports Yang has been in New York recently, but not, as our tipster claims, this week She also has lots and lots and lots of speculation about who will run a merged AOL-Yahoo.
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By Owen ThomasComment by jasondupree: Maybe Time Warner will buy Yahoo is a wierd turn of events. 1 Responses | Other threads
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acquisitions
Electronic Arts gives Take-Two shareholders the Yahoo flu
Take-Two Interactive, the marketer of Grand Theft Auto and various sports videogames, has watched its stock price plummet to $16.99 on the news that Electronic Arts has decided to quit trying to buy the company for $26 a share. Much like Yahoo's drop after Microsoft took an offer off the table, Take-Two's shares are headed south of where they were when EA initially made an offer. I'm counting the days until a third company meets the same fate and I get to write the obligatory trend piece. -
acquisitions
eBay trying to buy into billion-dollar Korean auctioneer
eBay, having failed to catch on in the heavily-wired nation of South Korea, is in talks with Korean site Gmarket. A few days ago, Gmarket announced Q2 sales of nearly $1 billion, which generated $35 million in revenue. Yahoo bought 10 percent of the company in 2006 for approximately $60 million. [NYT]
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By Paul BoutinComment by buzzzkilll: Gmarket has been spanking eBay's ass since '05. This would've been a better idea then. more » | Other threads
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acquisitions
Yahoo holds lead over Microsoft in bidding for hot '90s dotcom startup AOL
When it releases its second-quarter numbers Wednesday, Time Warner will also announce it's ready to dump AOL's dialup business. A combination of modem banks, CD-ROM mailers, and ruthless telemarketers which introduced America to the information superhighway in the 1990s, AOL's ISP business still has more than 8 million subscribers who pay through the nose for a quaintly overpriced service. What will be left: A collection of websites and an online-advertising business that has yet to get advertisers to pay anything even vaguely overpriced. Time Warner has flirted with Yahoo and Microsoft for years, but hasn't yet sealed a deal to get rid of AOL, the business which, on paper, acquired Time Warner at the turn of the millennium. More » -
Mancrush
Downright adorable Flickr founder wishes Microsoft had bought Yahoo
In an interview with ZDNet, Flickr cofounder Stewart Butterfield says that he wished Microsoft's bid for Yahoo had gone through — and that the now-scuppered deal wasn't the reason he resigned from Yahoo earlier this month. "Once the ball was rolling I would have rather seen the acquisition happen, he said. "I think a lot of damage was done to Yahoo." The admission will likely shock the Yahoo-owned photo-sharing site's faithful core of hardcore fans, who created satirical Microsoft Flickr logos in response to the software giant's bid. Butterfield also implies that Flickr would have been better off under Google's ownership, since that company was more willing to spend on speculative ventures. It's not a purely hypothetical question: Google was very interested in buying Flickr, but the search engine hesitated, and Yahoo ended up buying Flickr instead. I could go on analyzing Butterfield's comments, but I've become too distracted by a Flickr search of photos which demonstrate how fricking cute he is. The results: More »
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By Owen ThomasComment by nicheplayer: I still have hope that Flickr might end up under the Google banner one day. It's the best property... more » | Other threads
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rumormonger
Yahoo acquisition of GitHub stalled by shareholder fracas?
We hear that some Yahoo executives charged with developer relations, in their eagerness to reach more programmers and have them hook their software into Yahoo services, have been talking to source-code repository GitHub about an acquisition. GitHub's intended audience, programmer Ted Dziuba explains, is "people who spray their shorts over Git because it was invented by Linus Torvalds," the inventor of Linux; it's an alternative to Subversion, a tool for managing software's source code. But this move to fold a community of Torvalds fanboys into Yahoo has been stalled by the recent unpleasantness with Carl Icahn. All acquisitions are on hold until the next board meeting, champions of a GitHub acquisition have been told. Just as well; this deal sounds like a nonstarter, which should be killed for reasons beyond testy shareholders. Yahoo has enough gits as it is.
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By Owen ThomasComment by UriahFusus: Microsoft buying Yahoo is all backwards. Yahoo should buy Microsoft. Yahoo is in the right market, with a new leader... more » | Other threads
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rumormonger
ValueClick to buy Revenue Science?
Behavioral targeting is all the rage in online advertising. The technology aims to show ads to Internet users based on the sites they visit and the actions they perform, rather than targeting words they search for, as Google does, or matching advertisers' desired demographics to a site's audience, as most banner-ad purchasers do today. ValueClick has introduced its own product, in competition with AOL's Tacoda and Yahoo's BlueLithium. But ValueClick's executives may not be particularly confident in the product — if rumors are true that they're talking to startup Revenue Science about an acquisition. Revenue Science has raised more than $70 million in venture capital, and recently appointed former ValueClick executive Jeff Hirsch as its CEO.
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By Owen ThomasComment by sggrf: If they get bought it will be for pennies on the dollar compared to Right Media, Quigo and Tacoda. more » | Other threads
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yahoo
Jerry Yang's Olympic dreams
With the Icahn business settled, Jerry Yang can move on to more important questions: For example, is he going to the Beijing Olympics? A week ago, he hadn't quite made up his mind.The dithering was utterly characteristic for the perennially indecisive Yahoo cofounder. But you'd think he could commit to a no-brainer like attending the Games. Yang is a Taiwanese native, and no fan of the Communist regime — China's jailing of a blogger, aided by Yahoo China's handover of email records, led to a humiliating session where he was called to the carpet in front of Congress. But the Beijing Olympics is a seminal event in the rise of Asia, where Yahoo has significant investments — one of the few areas where it has an edge on Google. More » -
yahoo
Chipper Yang's latest memo: "Hi guys!"
Legg Mason portfolio manager saved Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang's job this morning, and far be it from the always-exclamatory Yang to hide his relief. Yang recorded a companywide video address, and reading a transcript filed with the SEC, we can't help but wonder if Yahoo's lawyers missed a few exclamation marks. "Hi guys," the transcript begins — but we're betting it sounded more like "Hi guys!!!!11!!!!" More »
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Comment by Wabewalker: Miracles do happen! He used cue cards! Be still my heart! Pity that whoever was holding them was six feet to... more » | Other threads
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quotable
Bostock: Why can't Microsoft be more like InBev?
Yahoo chairman Roy Bostock says that if Microsoft had handled itself the way InBev did, buying Anheuser-Busch for $52 billion even after A-B rejected an initial offer, Yahoo and Microsoft would probably be one company by now. "InBev was a classic, perfectly managed takeover," said Bostock. More »
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Comment by Uncle-Sam's Littlle Helper: Listen :) Mr. Chairman, why don't you offer MSFT to write the condition on takeover on the Yahoo! site, ... more » | Other threads
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yahoo raid
Microsoft's latest rejected Yahoo offer worth billions of dollars a year
Reason No. 8347 why we're glad we're not Jerry Yang: We like weekends away from work. Yang never gets them anymore. On Saturday night, Yahoo released a statement letting the world know it rejected yet another Microsoft offer to acquire Yahoo's search business. Kara Swisher reported the terms of that deal today. $2.3 billion a year for outsourcing search — why didn't Microsoft offer that in the first place, without corporate raider Carl Icahn holding a gun to Yang's head? That seems easier. The bullet points, below: More »
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Comment by dodgit: Reason No. 8348: Jerry Yang's pay for 2007 as CEO? $1 Not a bullshit $1, like Steve Jobs' "$1 salary + gulfstream... more » | Other threads
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strategery
Murdoch on Microsoft-Yahoo: "There won't be a deal"
Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang, who says shareholders shouldn't give corporate raider Carl Icahn control of the company because he has no plan other than to sell to Microsoft, got a boost from an unexpected supporter: News Corp. chairman Rupert Murdoch. Murdoch told reporters at Allen & Co.'s Sun Valley retreat that "in six months, (Microsoft) will walk away." The crusty mogul added: "There won't be a deal. There's bad personal feelings." More »
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Comment by outside2344: damn, the escort he is walking with back to his hotel room is hot. more » | Other threads
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yahoo raid
Yang eyes AOL to save his job
Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang spent the holiday weekend with his company's Goldman Sachs advisers, devising a plan to present shareholders during the company's annual meeting on August 1. The goal: Craft an alternative to a company breakup or buyout at the hands of Microsoft, which would likely come at the cost of the entire Yahoo board's jobs, including Yang's. To escape such a fate, Yang and his bankers zeroed in on Time Warner, hoping to acquire its online property AOL in exchange for $10 billion worth of Yahoo stock. It's an old plan, brought up again last week after first surfacing in April. More » -
stocks
Wall Street Journal makes Yahoo more expensive for Rupert Murdoch
The Wall Street Journal's report that Microsoft is looking for partners to dine on Yahoo's carcass à la carte — a group which includes Journal owner News Corp., whose media-mogul boss, Rupert Murdoch, has long flirted with swapping MySpace for a chunk of Yahoo — triggered after-hours trading that boosted Yahoo's stock well above $21 a share, keeping it from dipping below the $19 it was trading at before Team Redmond's initial buyout offer was announced. We can only hope the story was sourced better than TechCrunch's earlier stock-boosting rumor.
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By Jackson WestComment by sample032: For the ballsy, it's short time. Or buy some puts; I can't imagine this boost lasting more than a... more » | Other threads
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deals
Microsoft looking for a third to get in on the Yahoo action
Microsoft's latest plan: acquire Yahoo's search business and convince either Time Warner or News Corp to snatch up the rest. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer and Yahoo board chairman Roy Bostock had a meeting scheduled Monday to discuss the plans, but Ballmer called it off at the last minute, reports the Wall Street Journal. Yahoo sources took the cancellation to mean Ballmer couldn't persuade News Corp's chairman Rupert Murdoch or Time Warner CEO Jeff Bewkes to do the deal. They're probably right about Bewkes. Word has it he's hoping Yahoo will buy Time Warner's AOL, not the other way around. As for Murdoch, he's been willing to hand over MySpace for Yahoo stock since at least last year, but perhaps like us, he's wondering why anyone would make a move for Yahoo shares right now, when they don't seem to be going anywhere but down. (Photo by xamad) -
jerry yang
Yahoo CEO tries to convince shareholders Microsoft never wanted to merge
Perhaps you remember the morning of February 1, 2008, when Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer made public his intentions to purchase Yahoo at $31 per share. Or maybe you recall Ballmer's angry letter on April 5, demanding Yahoo answer to Microsoft's offer. Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang and the Yahoo board of directors would prefer you not. According to a shareholder presentation the group filed with the SEC — part of its campaign against Carl Icahn's alternative slate — Yahoo's board wants Yahoo shareholders to believe that "the record casts doubt on whether Microsoft was ever committed to a whole company acquisition." More »
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Comment by andrewlsteele: The Microsoft recruiting ad on this post is a nice touch... :) more » | Other threads
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blogging for dollars
Carl Icahn says he'll blog-troll Yahoo soon, promise!
Carl Icahn has finally gotten his online soapbox working so that he can start talking candidly about his proxy battle with Yahoo board, but posts so far have been few and far between. Some are noting that maybe it's just too hard to keep up with the rigors of blogging, but Icahn is now insisting it's the SEC prohibiting him from speaking out. Rather, he's just going to go on the attack against Yahoo management. Maybe he should have just setup a Tumblr account instead? That seems easier. (Photo by AP/Mark Lennihan)
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By Alaska MillerComment by BobDope: that was funny when p-diddy ran the New York Marathon, and he had this fancy Flash-ified 'train with Diddy' website,... more » | Other threads
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exits
Gates gives Yahoo deal the nay-no
The Bill Gates media express rolls on as Gates powers down his infernally unusable computer at Redmond today, but he's leaving as a prophet. In an interview with Tom Brokaw, he notes that any Yahoo deal (which he was never enthusiastic about in the first place) probably won't happen. [CNBC] -
microsoft
Yahoo and Microsoft discuss important deal that we're all supposed to still care about
Major Yahoo investors want Microsoft to buy a third of Yahoo at $30 to $32 a share and force Yahoo out of its Google search advertising deal. These shareholders say their pressure has Yahoo Roy Bostock believing he has to do a deal with Microsoft. These shareholders say Microsoft should pay Yahoo $1 billion to seal the deal. These shareholders shareholders say their plan would include firing Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang and president Sue Decker. These shareholders — like us — are probably just tired of hearing about either company at this point. -
acquisitions
Dear Yahoo shareholders, we totes heart you, signed Roy and Jerry
In an open letter to shareholders, CEO Jerry Yang and chairman Roy Bostock assure abused shareholders that they're the only ones who truly love you. They know that Microsoft offered to buy your shares at a premium, and then tried to be just a friend with search benefit, offering $1 billion check and an $8 billion investment. But don't listen to Carl Icahn who says they haven't been good to you — he just doesn't understand that what you share goes deeper than stock price drops. More » -
yahoo
Report: Microsoft-Yahoo search deal back on the table
After a deal outsourcing search advertising to Google failed to impress shareholders, Yahoo board members — including chairman Roy Bostock — are reconsidering a deal that would outsource and sell Yahoo's search business to Microsoft instead. This according to a News.com report, which cites a single source — "one major investor who has been in contact with both parties" — and says that like Yahoo, Microsoft is also willing to renew negotiations and even "sweeten" its offer. We're skeptical. More »
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Comment by sample032: This is just fake news so Icahn can unload his shares at the expense of speculators. I have no... more » | Other threads
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blogging for dollars
Carl Icahn finally updates The Icahn Report — powered by Google
No wonder Carl Icahn thinks that Yahoo's search advertising deal with Google has merit — turns out that his blog, The Icahn Report, uses Google to help readers search. Not that there's much content to search, as it just went live today, with an archive only going back a week to June 12. Which just happens to be the day that talks with Microsoft ended and the partnership with Google was announced. One keyword you won't be able to find with a Google-powered search of Icahn's blog? The word "Yahoo."
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By Jackson WestComment by tillman: May be it is his way of protesting against Roy and the board. more » | Other threads
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Left Behind
Faithful Yahoo shareholders await Microsoft's second coming
While Yahoo shares hover around $23, deep inside Yahoo shareholders' hearts there is a longing for the days when Microsoft actually put a $33 per share offer on the table. The hopeful among these shareholders say that day can come again. Since a complete takeover of the Yahoo board would initiate a change in control severance package which all but precludes a renewed bid from Microsoft, these shareholders now plan to replace only board members who fought to keep Yahoo independent — specifically purple bleeders chairman Roy Bostock, Gary Wilson and Ron Burkle. “If we can handpick the ones to vote out, it might be easier,” one investor told Kara Swisher. “There are a lot of voices on that board that don’t get heard enough and need to.” Another, likely whispering in fervid tones, swathed in tattered rags and blind as a seer told Swisher: “the only thing to do now is to try to convince Microsoft to either make a better search offer and maybe even another bid and get a board in place that will welcome that overture.” (Illustration by Trevor Blake)
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Comment by BartKela: "If we can handpick the ones to vote out, it might be easier," one investor told Kara Swisher. This comment makes... more » | Other threads
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leaks
Microsoft's Kevin Johnson explains the failed Yahoo merger to troops
Despite all the reports to the contrary, Microsoft actually ended its bid to acquire Yahoo way back in April. At least, that's what Microsoft topper Kevin Johnson would have his underlings believe. "In a March 10th meeting in Palo Alto, we explained to Yahoo management the importance of reaching an agreement by the end of April," Johnson wrote in a memo. More »
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Comment by Benders_Geek: Microsoft is your Grandfather's computing company. A Dinosaur relic of the 1980's, that has not nor could not innovate... more » | Other threads
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microsoft
Microsoft, Yahoo confirm talks are dead
Microsoft and Yahoo have released statements confirming reports that merger negotiations are off. In its statement, Microsoft leaves the door open for a partnership that would "ensure healthy competition in the marketplace, providing greater choice and innovation for advertisers, publishers and consumers." Yahoo, however, throws the deadbolt, saying: More »
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Comment by macbeach: "something is missing here." Yes. I find no trace of brain cells. more » | Other threads
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yahoo raid
Icahn to Yahoo: "Why did you permit Google to leave you in the dust?"
Buying up billions of dollars in Yahoo shares and calling for a new board and renewed merger negotiations with Microsoft made corporate raider Carl Icahn come off daring and bold, if slightly confused. Now, with his latest later to Yahoo chairman Roy Bostock, Icahn just seems whiny. He begins his letter: More »
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Comment by Uncle-Sam's Littlle Helper: Icahn should get a serious NLP training. Being such an agressive fool and playing the blame game will bring he... more » | Other threads
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